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Posts: 8

Registered: Apr 2003
jim_phillips
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Saturday, April 26, 2003 10:33 PM   (NEW!)

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I would like to invite the law enforcement community to my website:
http://pursuitwatch.org
I invite your participation in the quest for a solution to the growing problem of pursuit deaths.

Jim Phillips



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Registered: Apr 2003
bruno6301
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Saturday, April 26, 2003 10:45 PM   (NEW!)

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Jim: A lot of agencies have policy now where persuits are called off to try and prevent MV deaths to officers...I had one chase that ran 4 counties...Damn, I think that if ALL departments have a "stop" policy, then we would see less MVA's where a Brother/Sister are killed. Sometimes you yourself just have to know when to say stop...I'll check out your site, and have hubby do same...He is a Sgt. here in Jersey, and his last chase was halted. Better sometimes to halt a chase, and let the man go home! Take care...

-------------------------
C.D. Bruno

**Drugs? What Drugs? "Officer these are my brothers pants!!!"





*Bruno6301@PoliceOne.com



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Posts: 26

Registered: Feb 2003
duihound
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Sunday, April 27, 2003 5:04 AM   (NEW!)

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Simple solution, tell people NOT to run from the cops...This isn't a game it's life or death and sometimes, unfortunatly it's death, either to an innocent bystander or to an officer. I however don't see this solution as working.

-------------------------

Una Stamus



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Posts: 77

Registered: Feb 2003
astros50
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Sunday, April 27, 2003 12:38 PM   (NEW!)

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Common sense has to be utilized. I didn't go to the web site to if I'm talking out of turn here, somebody will let me know. A blanket policy on pursuit is unworkable. No chases or allowing officers to chase anything that moves is wrong. If you are chasing somebody for an equipment violation only then I think common sense dictates that the pursuit should be called in heavy traffic. If you have a murder suspect running then I think the smart thing to do is to see the pursuit to its fruition. Having involved and intellegent supervisors and officers is the first step.

-------------------------
"And when they ask you if you've paid your dues, you tell em what Jack Burton always says. The check is in the mail"



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Posts: 126

Registered: Aug 2002
TwelveVoltMan
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Sunday, April 27, 2003 11:26 PM   (NEW!)

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Well said, astros50. I echo your sentiments.

-------------------------
With honor, integrity, and courage...



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Posts: 8

Registered: Apr 2003
jim_phillips
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Sunday, April 27, 2003 11:50 PM   (NEW!)

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<< If you are chasing somebody for an equipment violation only then I think common sense dictates that the pursuit should be called in heavy traffic. >>



So accidents only happen in heavy traffic?



<< If you have a murder suspect running then I think the smart thing to do is to see the pursuit to its fruition >>



Even in heavy traffic-a school zone- at 150 mph?



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Registered: Feb 2003
duihound
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Monday, April 28, 2003 3:18 AM   (NEW!)

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If someone decided they were going to run from me for a minor violation and it was the middle of rush hour traffic, depending on the circumstances, I would probably call it off. Now if they were just not stopping and still running the speed limit, I probably wouldnt call it off. There are a lot of variables that the officer needs to consider. Not everyone should be pursued. If I can get the plate, and place the description of the driver with the registered owner, I'll just make a trip out to his/her house at a later time or just go and wait for them.

Do accidents only happen in heavy traffic? NO..We all know that. Are pursuits the only cause of traffic accidents/fatalites? No, that also is a logical answer.

Would you pursue someone who just commited murder through a school zone at a 150 mph? No, because my car doesnt go that fast. Would I do it at max speed? No, I would have backed off so I could look for children, however, the person you are chasing has already shown a lack of respect for human life and you know he isnt going to slow down or care if he hits a kid.

People are inevitably going to be on both sides of this fence. It is going to be debated for years to come, some decisions that seemed good at one time are going to be made by administration and then get turned inside out because of a freak occurance and its going to be cause to another review of policy. No one is ever going to be happy.

-------------------------

Una Stamus



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Posts: 77

Registered: Feb 2003
astros50
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Tuesday, April 29, 2003 3:05 PM   (NEW!)

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jim phillips,

I appreciate your point of view, but taking what I said out of context to support your point of view isn't all that constructive. The main point that I was trying to make is this. Neither a blanket policy forbiding all pursuits nor a blanket policy allowing pursuits for any reason is a good idea. Ultimately, well trained, well educated, and professional officers and supervisors will minimize the risks in an inherently dangerous aspect of law enforcement.

Maybe some new technology could from the automotive industry could help end pursuits before they start. But, until officers have the ability to turn off bad guy's cars, some pursuits will remain a necessary evil.

I look forward to hearing your point of view on this and other subjects facing police officers on this message board.

-------------------------
"And when they ask you if you've paid your dues, you tell em what Jack Burton always says. The check is in the mail"



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Posts: 8

Registered: Apr 2003
jim_phillips
New Member


Tuesday, April 29, 2003 7:21 PM   (NEW!)

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<< Ultimately, well trained, well educated, and professional officers and supervisors will minimize the risks in an inherently dangerous aspect of law enforcement. >>



Exactly! The police should be part of the solution-not part of the problem. Your statement above is music to my ears.

As far as out of context-I can't imagine where an equipment violation would ever be a reason for high-speed pursuit. I do not support a ban on all pursuits-It is a necessary evil at times.

If I was in law enforcement I would want a pursuit policy that left as little as possible to interpretation. Many a career has been wasted on the shifting sands of policy interpretation.



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Posts: 158

Registered: Aug 2002
whiskey
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Tuesday, April 29, 2003 9:14 PM   (NEW!)

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Can the driver be identified to be later picked up? (If is a matter of a non-safety related stop)

Is the reason for the pursuit outweighed by public safety?

Now enter a stop for a registration violation, the bad guy/girl flees. He/she knows they just killed someone or did an armed robbery, but we may not. They think we know because we are stopping them.

We shouldn't have our common sense taken away to be dictated by a
policy(s) so strict that a good officer isn't allowed to utilize his good discretion and judgement.

Whiskey

-------------------------
Whiskey
An optimist is a man who, when she says, "I'm telling you no for the last time," he says, "I knew you'd weaken in time."

 Message edited by: whiskey on 04/30/2003 07:09:04



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Posts: 415

Registered: Jun 2001
jakelaw
jakelaw


Wednesday, April 30, 2003 4:08 AM   (NEW!)

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Mr. Phillips,
We in the Law Enforcement community and here at PoliceOne.com appreciate what you are trying to do and the lives you are trying to save. The questions you asked, "So accidents only happen in heavy traffic? Even in heavy traffic-a school zone- at 150 mph?" are rather sarcastic. If you came here to try to gain insight into the mindset of the LE Community, we applaud your efforts. If you came here to "prove a point" by picking a verbal fight, please do not waste your, nor our time. No one wants to save lives more than those in LE, that is one of the prime reasons we do what we do. I looked at your web site. What I saw was a lot of effort spent at demonizing pursuits and the officers who pursue. I am sorry for the families of the people who have died in pursuit related accidents, but they are not, as you put in the site, "Victims of Police Pursuits." They are victims of a criminal who for whatever reason does not have enough respect for the society he lives in or the citizens around him to follow the law. I am not defending all pursuits, but they are necessary at times. I think painting all pursuits and the officers who participate in them as bad, or somehow evil, is being short sighted. My agency has a very restrictive policy which has, in my opinion, allowed at least two criminals go on to kill people because pursuits were not "justified." I hope Mr. Phillips that you are here to find solutions, and not as I said, to pick a fight. If you are here to find solutions, welcome to our forum and I wish you well.


-------------------------
"Be first or be dead. There is no second place in a gun fight."
Bill Jordan



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Posts: 66

Registered: Jun 2001
nelson4592
Member


Wednesday, April 30, 2003 11:25 AM   (NEW!)

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I hope, Jim, you didn't come to this site in an effort to convert us to the way of your thinking. I looked at your web site (hoping to see something new), and I never saw mentioned holding the person that started the pursuit responsible for their actions. It seems to be the American way to hold everybody else responsible for your own actions. We need stronger prison terms and mandatory sentencing guidelines for offenders. Also, remember police officers have families of their own that they want to return to. Please don't come to this site and attempt to pick a typed fight with the members. Not many of us are into that.





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Posts: 8

Registered: Apr 2003
jim_phillips
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Wednesday, April 30, 2003 11:35 AM   (NEW!)

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<< The questions you asked, "So accidents only happen in heavy traffic? Even in heavy traffic-a school zone- at 150 mph?" are rather sarcastic >>


I apoligize for the sarcasim-it was use to point out serious complications of a high-speed pursuit steming from an equipment violation.




<< What I saw was a lot of effort spent at demonizing pursuits and the officers who pursue. >>


I really don't see this. The site is an effort to point out the problem. Organize a movement. And promote change.

The phrase "Victims of Police Pursuits" belongs to another organization. I do use "victim of police pursuit" a couple of times-the phase is not intended to place blame, it's just that it is a whole lot easier to use than:


<< people who have died in pursuit related accidents >>


No sarcasim intended here! I am open to sugesstion.



<< They are victims of a criminal who for whatever reason does not have enough respect for the society he lives in or the citizens around him to follow the law >>


This is an over-simplification of the problem and offers no solution.



<< I think painting all pursuits and the officers who participate in them as bad, or somehow evil, is being short sighted. >>



I don't do that. In fact the first statement of our mission statement allows that pursuit is sometimes necessary:


<< 1. High speed pursuit is a law enforcement tool that should be used only when there is imminent >>





<< allowed at least two criminals go on to kill people because pursuits were not "justified." >>


But I know that over 300 people were killed, and 50,000 crashes occurred, in pursuits last year.

I am not here to pick a fight. I am here for exactly the reason I stated in my first post. I have, in the short time since I have gone "public", met a number of like-minded police officers around the country who agree that something needs to be done. I think any reasonable person would agree that a problem exists, and that a solution will never be found if:


<< I think we can both agree that this tragic case cannot be summed up with over simplifications like "The Sheriff killed my daughter." or "The bad guys killed your daughter." >>

from Open LetterursuitWatch
we dig in and refuse to listen. I am all ears.



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Posts: 77

Registered: Feb 2003
astros50
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Wednesday, April 30, 2003 12:20 PM   (NEW!)

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For the record, I think that a pursuit for an equipment violation is acceptable under certain conditions because of reasons already stated by Whiskey. I am not living in the pursuit capital of the world, but I have engaged in pursuits for traffic offenses in light traffic conditions. In each case, the suspect wasn't running because he didnt want to get a ticket. He was running because he had just committed a felony or was wanted for felony charges. I initiated a pursuit in morning rush hour traffic one time. The suspect had just ran over, beat, and kidnapped his soon to be ex-wife. He held a 10 inch butcher knife high so I could see it. He had his victim call 9-1-1 to tell us that if we didnt back off, he was going to kill her. During the pursuit, he hit two motorists (no one was hurt). He finally stopped at his brothers home where he was forcibly take into custody. Later we found a burial kit complete with shovel, tarps, rope, and a change of clothes. He wasnt just going to beat her up, he was going to kill her.

Now, I don't know that a guy that I am trying to stop for speeding doesnt have his wife bound in the trunk, on the way to her burial site. Thats a chance I have to take with a minor traffic violation in heavy traffic. I dont mind terminating a pursuit under those conditions. I however wont end a pursuit if it is the same situation at 3:00 am on a Sunday morning.

I respect your opinion and will read your response. However, I wont reply anymore because I wont change your opinion and you wont change mine.

-------------------------
"And when they ask you if you've paid your dues, you tell em what Jack Burton always says. The check is in the mail"



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Posts: 8

Registered: Apr 2003
jim_phillips
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Wednesday, April 30, 2003 7:49 PM   (NEW!)

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It's unfortunate that you feel that way. Law enforcement is in the middle of a revolution as we speak. Whether because of fiscal restraints or heightened public awareness of the dangers of lax pursuit policy, or enforcement of pursuit policy, or sensitivity to the public safety issues, police agencies across the nation are reviewing and changing police pursuit policies.

These are the facts of life:
1. Sooner or later your department will restrict their pursuit policy, or if they already have they will restrict it further.
2. Sooner or later all police officers will be held accountable for the proper implementation of that policy.
3. These policys will be made, or approved, by civilians.

So where will you, as a law enforcement profesional, be in all this. Looking for another profession? Facing disiplinary, civil, or criminal action? Fighting the inevitable?

Or:
Accepting the fact that police pursuits are dangerous-and working, lending your expertise, to find a solution that promotes public safety, saves lives, minimizes property damage and lands the bad guys in jail. You can be part of the solution or those that replace you will. Make your choice.



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Posts: 415

Registered: Jun 2001
jakelaw
jakelaw


Wednesday, April 30, 2003 10:34 PM   (NEW!)

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Mr. Phillips,

"These are the facts of life:
1. Sooner or later your department will restrict their pursuit policy, or if they already have they will restrict it further.
2. Sooner or later all police officers will be held accountable for the proper implementation of that policy.
3. These policys will be made, or approved, by civilians."

There are a couple of things wrong with these statements.
1. Many departments already have extremely restrictive policies. I mentioned my own dept. whose policy is as restrictive as it can be without banning them out right.
2. How do you respond to the officers and supervisors who do implement the policies appropriately and there are still accidents?
3. I do not know what you do for a living, but in ANY profession, it is folly to allow those on the outside, who know nothing about the job, to dictate policy.

I believe astro may be correct in saying for the most part we will not change your mind and you may not change ours. I think we do agree that some chases are neccesary and some are not. There can also be a lot of gray area which will require experienced judgment on the part of officers on the streets.

I think you are being rather big headed about your position when you provided the following statements:

"So where will you, as a law enforcement profesional, be in all this. Looking for another profession? Facing disiplinary, civil, or criminal action? Fighting the inevitable?
Or:
Accepting the fact that police pursuits are dangerous-and working, lending your expertise, to find a solution that promotes public safety, saves lives, minimizes property damage and lands the bad guys in jail. You can be part of the solution or those that replace you will. Make your choice."

You seem to think you and your position is the only valid one and that it is inevitable it will be implemented. I have learned in life, and in my career, there are no absolutes and especially in politically charged issues such as this, there are no guarantees. You stated this will be "inevitable." I am glad you have a crystal ball and can see the future. As long as there are criminals, there will be chases. Officers will always need discretion to do there jobs and people like you who desire to take that discretion do not remotely understand the job we do. It is very easy for you to sit back and give 20/20 hindsight when you have not been there.

We do appreciate what you are trying to do, but when you go about it in such a manner as to say the way you feel is the way it is and WILL be, it puts people off and does not promote your cause very well. I wish you the best, but until you realize the non-emotional side your position I think it will always be absolute for you.


-------------------------
"Be first or be dead. There is no second place in a gun fight."
Bill Jordan



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Posts: 119

Registered: Aug 2002
pr24guy
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Wednesday, April 30, 2003 11:20 PM   (NEW!)

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Jim,It seems to me that you are just as bad as the worthless people that run from the police. You created a websight that dwells on the loss souls of the inocent,killed by law breakers.You offer no solutions only footage of carnege. You could be compared to the maker of "Faces of Death", you are sick!!! Just what have you done to save a live in your adult life. I know that can not compare to the many lives saved by law enforcement officers everyday. Hell,why don't we stop carrying guns too,we might hit a bystander?Why go to bank robberies,afterall their insured? TRY THIS ON FOR SIZE - DON'T BREAK THE LAW AND HOLD THOSE THAT DO ACCOUNTABLE.

-------------------------
walk tall and safe



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Posts: 415

Registered: Jun 2001
jakelaw
jakelaw


Wednesday, April 30, 2003 11:27 PM   (NEW!)

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Bravo!

-------------------------
"Be first or be dead. There is no second place in a gun fight."
Bill Jordan



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Posts: 8

Registered: Apr 2003
jim_phillips
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Thursday, May 01, 2003 12:11 AM   (NEW!)

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Keep safe everyone. I'm tired of talking to a wall.





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Posts: 119

Registered: Aug 2002
pr24guy
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Thursday, May 01, 2003 12:50 AM   (NEW!)

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Sorry for the typos on my last post,I was running out the door. Jim,where are ya going buddy? Confrontation with Law Enforcement Officers that have a passion for your safety doesn't bother you that much does it?

-------------------------
walk tall and safe



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Posts: 20

Registered: Sep 2002
mapache
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Thursday, May 01, 2003 2:00 AM   (NEW!)

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Jim,

I can't believe you're leaving already. I haven't even weighed in here, yet.

"I have, in the short time since I have gone 'public', met a number of like-minded police officers around the country who agree that something needs to be done."

- Ummm, yeah. What was already stated. The bad guy that runs from the police should really get in trouble. Not super Secret-Squirrel probation or the proverbial "slap on the hand" which so often happens.

This last statement is my personal opinion which may not be reflected by many, but I offer it up to the board anyway:

We have laws in place to punish criminal behavior/acts. When you begin plea bargaining cases (everyone here will have a story of a case which was whittled away to nothing by a prosecuting attorney) and don't give the sentences these people deserve, you are not creating a fear of punishment. I honestly wish we could go back to the days of having public hangings. Imagine if the criminal element could see the results of their actions. No going to prison for 15-30 years to work out and watch television at the cost of the taxpayers. Make a classification of felony where any crime in it or above it is punishable by execution...swift execution.

I'm not saying to circumvent the rights of the accused...my God, NO! But when convicted by a unanimous decision from a jury of their peers, the case should be remanded to the next judicial level to make sure any defense questions about the cases' prosecution are taken care of. (i.e., appeals). Once cleared by the high court, give the person one year in prison to take care of as much personal business as they can, then string 'em up. I won't get into all the different crimes as I've pretty much gone way off topic (sorry!) but when the b/g runs and he's not supposed to, he should be dealt with appropriately. Not blaming the police that we should have quit chasing, THE SUSPECT SHOULD HAVE QUIT RUNNING!



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Posts: 126

Registered: Aug 2002
TwelveVoltMan
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Thursday, May 01, 2003 3:55 AM   (NEW!)

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Wow... things sure got going here since I checked it out a few days ago. Jim, why take off? Do these guys' arguments make too much sense for you?

-------------------------
With honor, integrity, and courage...



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Registered: Mar 2002
snort
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Thursday, May 01, 2003 6:15 AM   (NEW!)

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So much for getting our participation there Mr Phillips. It sure is funny when people expect a certain answer to their questions and then get angry when the answers dont match their preconceived expectations.

You want to stop pursuits make criminals pay for their crimes. Make your legislature change the violation into a major felony. Put them away for a long time for running from the police!

Oh and I am under a very restrictive pursuit policy from my dept. and I am only allowed to chase violent felons. Supervisers are so scared to allow pursuits that I could be chasing an escaped Charlie Manson and I would probably get called off.

Later!

-------------------------
Fortuna Favet Fortibus!



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Posts: 66

Registered: Jun 2001
nelson4592
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Thursday, May 01, 2003 10:39 AM   (NEW!)

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See ya Jimbo.....glad to see you taking your drivel someplace else.



Kip



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Posts: 142

Registered: Aug 2002
blue4good
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Thursday, May 01, 2003 6:51 PM   (NEW!)

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After reading this entire thread, I have only a few comments to add to what has already been said.

Jim, you made the statement "If I was in law enforcement I would want a pursuit policy that left as little as possible to interpretation". It's a good thing you're NOT in law enforcement. The problem with black and white policies is that such plethoras of instruction, when applied to such fluid occurrences, are often so complex that officers are pushed to the point of "inaction" due to the fear of misapplication.

Furthermore, there is no doubt that lives have been saved by police pursuits. It is highly probable that a policy such as you suggest would certainly have hindered and/or prevented some of those life-saving pursuits. I think you would not fare well in a room full of "would-have-been" victims who were saved as a result of those pursuits.

I really hate to rain on your parade but a solution to the problem has already been identified in the form of one word -"reasonableness". Finally, the sanctions for "unreasonableness" have been around since lawyers started chasing ambulances.

You're not a war-protestor, too, are you?

-------------------------
keep your suspicious eyes open.



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Registered: Jun 2001
Talondog
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Thursday, May 01, 2003 10:01 PM   (NEW!)

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OK, just to weigh in here-attempting to flee from a police officer is a felony. In My Opinion-if you flee from the police and cause an accident where someone dies, you should be charged with Aggravated Murder in the first degree, punishable by penalty of death, or life without the possibility of parole. I think that would seriously cut down on the number of pursuits. Buy I got a feeling Jimbo is against the death penalty, so it won't work for him.

-------------------------
Pride
Integrity
Guts
Service



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Registered: Jun 2001
ET5252
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Thursday, May 01, 2003 10:39 PM   (NEW!)

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Keep safe everyone. I'm tired of talking to a wall. that is because you are one way. Well then i think you need to take your hybrid vehicle and get it up to 60mph and run into the nearest cement piller. and its be safe everyone






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Registered: Aug 2002
blue4good
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Saturday, May 03, 2003 1:11 PM   (NEW!)

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Talondog,

Excellent!

-------------------------
keep your suspicious eyes open.



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Registered: Sep 2002
casey2
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Monday, May 05, 2003 9:50 AM   (NEW!)

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"Yet as the drama quickly, inescapably unfolds before the camera?s all-seeing, clinical eye, there are various clues that the footage is, indeed, being shot in color: the speeding police cruiser?s circling blue sphere atop its roof, just out of frame, and, finally, the horrific glare of blood red brake lights gleaming like beacons just before the resulting hail of carnage, flotsam, and debris that turns this high-speed chase... into a homicide."

This is a quote from one story on pursuitwatch.org: http://www.pursuitwatch.org/stories/Collateral_damage.htm

The writer is good with words. However, the "drama" is purely in his or her mind.

"Hopkins leaves his cruiser momentarily, presumably to assist an unknown deputy who has deployed stop sticks to deter the first car, perhaps thinking it is the offending vehicle, perhaps just eager to stop both cars at all costs."

"...presumably..."? "...perhaps..."? "...at all costs"?!

These are the ramblings of someone who embellished because he or she had no facts about the pursuit. It reads like a very bad novel, written by someone who has swallowed a dictionary.

Is Jim Phillips affiliated with copwatch.com? It sounds like it.

I was going to post my (one and only) pursuit story here in an attempt to inform/educate Mr. Phillips about what the the decision-making process is like at 85 mph, but I see that he's crawled back into his hole.

One more shithead down the drain. Good.

Be safe.

-------------------------
sic semper tyrannis

Casey



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Registered: Feb 2003
vapd3578
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Wednesday, May 07, 2003 2:48 PM   (NEW!)

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Wow, he took of out of here real quick. Guess he picked the wrong crowd to mess with. I say let him sling his stupid meaningless half-truth bull&%$# elsewhere.

-------------------------
Remember, Better to be tried by 12 than carried out by 6.



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